Changemaker Matt Poepsel, Vice President and Godfather of Talent Optimization, The Predictive Index

What does leadership look like when everything feels uncertain?

In this episode of Agency for Change, Lyn welcomes back Matt Poepsel, Vice President and Godfather of Talent Optimization at The Predictive Index, for a timely and deeply human conversation about leadership in what Matt calls today’s high-stakes, entropy-driven economy.

Together, Lyn and Matt explore why modern workplaces feel more stressful, fragmented, and disconnected—and what leaders can do about it. Matt introduces a powerful reframe: leadership isn’t just about performance or strategy; it’s about healing separation. Through concepts like hope, mutuality, and synchrony, he shares how commitment can become the energy that brings teams back together during times of rapid change.

Matt leaves listeners with a powerful reminder: leadership is accessible to all of us, no matter our title, and how we show up can make a real difference.

Connect with Matt and The Predictive Index at: 

·       LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattpoepsel/

·       Website – https://www.mattpoepsel.com/

·       Lead the People Podcast – https://www.mattpoepsel.com/podcasts/lead-the-people

Transcript

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Connect with Matt and The Predictive Index at: 

·       LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattpoepsel/

·       Website – https://www.mattpoepsel.com/

·       Lead the People Podcast – https://www.mattpoepsel.com/podcasts/lead-the-people

Matt Poepsel: 0:00

Leaders are healers of separation.

Announcer: 0:05

Welcome to Agency for Change, a podcast from KidGlov that brings you the stories of change makers who are actively working to improve our communities. In every episode, we'll meet with people who are making a lasting impact in the places we call homes.

Lyn Wineman: 0:28

Hey everyone, this is Lyn Wineman, president and chief strategist of KidGlov. Welcome back to another episode of the Agency for Change podcast. Today we are welcoming back my friend Matt Poepsel. Matt is the Godfather of Talent Optimization himself, and he's joining us for another really insightful conversation. Matt's been busy since we last talked, and he's back to share what he's seeing in today's high-stakes business climate and how leaders can create more clarity, more connection, while also building that long-term success. Let's dive in, Matt. Welcome to the podcast.

Matt Poepsel: 1:16

Thanks so much for having me, Lyn. It's a pleasure to be back.

Lyn Wineman: 1:25

I always love talking to you. We had you on the Agency for Change in the fall of 2024. I'm really curious, Matt, what have you been up to since then?

Matt Poepsel: 1:34

Yeah, I've been up to so much, just in terms of uh keeping my eyes open, studying this world of work of ours as it spins faster and faster, and doing what I can to share my notes along the way.

Lyn Wineman: 1:45

I love that. So I have seen following your social media, which by the way, I'm gonna put a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes, Matt, because anybody who's listening and digs this content, I would say follow Matt on LinkedIn. But I've seen you talk a lot lately about today's business environment being a high-stakes climate. What does that look like from your perspective and what does it mean?

Matt Poepsel: 2:11

Yeah, in the old days, you know, when you think about high-stakes environments, like, well, I had military service before. I recently gave a talk to a group of emergency room doctors. That's clearly high stakes. You can think about the fire service, et cetera. But in those environments, really the level of trust and the level of communication and the types of commitment to the team concept, you know, those things are always extremely high in those environments. And now when I look around, they're all high-stakes environments. What's happening in our businesses? When you think about how much is at stake because things are moving so fast, we really feel like we're walking on the razor's edge. There's a new technological announcement every week. There's entirely shifts of business models, companies, you know, coming into business, out of business faster than ever. Employees are having a heck of a time. We haven't seen these types of challenges before in terms of the low levels of engagement and trust and leadership. But it's really, really brutal. So I feel like every environment's a high-stakes environment these days, Lyn.

Lyn Wineman: 3:05

Wow. So, Matt, what does that do to us, both from a business side and a human side, to continuously feel like we're being chased by the tiger, right? I think that's what we kind of go back to. Our bodies go into fight or flight. And we're just not really meant to be chased by the tiger all the time, are we?

Matt Poepsel: 3:26

No, not at all. If you think about the two major systems inside of our brains and our bodies, you know, you think about the emotional centers. And so imagine just the stress response, the chronically being and feeling like we're under stress, like we're never not uh able to let our guard down, right? Where you're you've got this constant vigilance all the time scanning the environment for the next threat. Because after the pandemic, you know, we went to remote work environments and then there were economic headwinds, there's so much divisiveness across the board, these types of things are really affecting us. Then AI comes along. And now all of a sudden it's restructuring jobs, if not eliminating some jobs, or at least creating uncertainty. So there's this heightened level of stress, and it just doesn't go away. And you, you know, I think we're past the point of looking and saying, when are we going to go back to normal? There, there's no going back. This is just how it's going to be. So I think that's the effective system that we have where we're at this high alert level. Cognitively, oh my gosh, so much information, so much change, so much to absorb. We were already burned out, and now we're trying to deploy all these new tools or to work in new ways. So I think we're getting a double whammy of both being overloaded cognitively, being overloaded emotionally, and yet at the same time, we can't stand still. That's what really puts us in a bind.

Lyn Wineman: 4:40

Yeah. Wow, Matt, I feel like I need a nap already at this point in our conversation. But you have hit a nerve with me because being in marketing and advertising, we're in one of those fields that people are saying, hey, you guys are going to be replaced by AI. I can have AI do my copywriting and my design. But yet, I tell you what, every morning I go to LinkedIn and I'm like, oh yeah, this is a post that was done by AI, and this is a post that was done by AI, and this is an email that was done by AI, right? And I would say, from my perspective, it makes me less trusting and less receptive to that information that's coming through. But it also, I will say, every time someone says to me, and it might be multiple times a day, are you concerned about what AI is doing to your industry? I'm sure the cortisol like flares and my blood pressure flares and my heart, you know, races and all the things multiple times a day just because somebody says, What about AI? So what does that do to us as leaders? I know leadership is your particular area of passion and expertise. I mean, it's one thing to live through this every day. Have you seen it impact leadership styles?

Matt Poepsel: 6:01

100%. I think leaders are not impervious to the types of anxiety and fears that you're describing that you know, rank and file employees have for sure. And I think while it's true that, you know, these are still early days. It's hard to even say this, but there's these are still early days of things like AI. But there's still so much uncertainty. And there's the plausible, and kind of even this one of the groups that have been hit the hardest right now are uh recent graduates who are looking for entry-level jobs. And there's so many employers who are saying on the sidelines, saying, let's not hire for those entry-level jobs. Let's see if AI can do some of this stuff faster and cheaper. And so if you're a person who just got out of college and you're looking for your first career job and you're like, there is no, you know, first rung of that ladder. You almost have to come out of school with four years of experience. They're in an impossible situation. Some of these things will shake themselves out. But I think that the name of the game here is not to be static, but to recognize that we have to be fluid. Everything is changing. So, to your point about leadership, it's twofold. One is we have to remember the leadership paradox. It's not about you, right? When it comes to leadership, it's about the mission and it's about other people that are in your in your care. But the second is it's only about you when it comes to taking action. So all that means is that when it comes to what people are dealing with, we have to understand that they're not at their best right now, that they're overwhelmed, they're feeling anxious, they're afraid. That heightens the requirement for leadership. We also have to recognize that we're not at our best right now, too. We're afraid also, and we're allowed to feel the way that we feel. But when it comes to shifting that around, flipping the coin, and saying I have to take action, I'm gonna have to practice leadership a little bit differently than I would have a couple years ago when things were a little bit easier. And I think we have to recognize that.

Lyn Wineman: 7:44

Matt, could you say more about that? When you are saying you're gonna have to practice leadership a little bit differently. Can you give me some examples?

Matt Poepsel: 7:55

I think if you think about it, let's talk about the classic middle manager who's completely under attack right now. Yeah. So there's a couple of things going on. One is if you're in the middle of an organization like so many people are, you're feeling that executive pressure to go fast and fast and faster, right? But at the same time, you know that your individual contributors, your first line managers, they're overwhelmed and burned out and trying to absorb all this change. So you feel caught between, you know, uh these two tectonic plates that are kind of grinding us back and forth. That's one challenge. 

The second is the nature of AI is absolutely changing what used to be considered value-added activities for managers. Shuttling information, communicating, preparing reports, summaries, you know, giving you the status, the interpretation of things. AI is better and faster at a lot of that stuff. So all it means is that the nature of value has shifted. And now we have to make sure that we're equally good at the human bits, right? How can we up the level of safety and connection and psychology, the psychological safety, but also the level of engagement and the willingness to do the work on the part of the workers? And that's an area that a lot of times we have to recognize we have not set our leaders up for success in this way because we don't give them the proper leadership training to round them out. We've taught them over many years about everything from operations to technology to strategy to innovation. We haven't really taught the average business person how to get the people part right. And I think that it's high time that we do that.

Lyn Wineman: 9:23

All right. So, Matt, since we don't take video from this podcast, people aren't able to see me here giving you the slow nod of acknowledgement, right? Like, oh my goodness, Matt, everything you're saying rings so true. And if I could ask permission to be vulnerable for a moment, if that's all right with you and share maybe a personal story here. But, you know, it's no secret, this last year, two years has really been brutal on small businesses, but on marketing in particular. And I look around today and think about a year ago, I know a half a dozen advertising agencies that have just closed their doors. There's no other time in my career, and it's a long career, that I remember that happening in such a short, short amount of time. And so for me as a leader, that combined with my own business experiences has caused a lot of fear. And what I know is that when I feel fear as a leader, I act differently. The sense of urgency increases. Sometimes I refer to myself as a crazy person. I act like a crazy person. I try to do everything myself. I don't communicate as well. I don't show up for my team members the way I want to. And somehow for me, in the last 60 days, something clicked for me. And I just decided I wasn't going to be fearful anymore. Like it just was that crazy, but also I'm just not going to. I'm I am going to believe this is all going to work out. As a matter of fact, in my mind, my mantra is everything is working out right now and just focusing on that present moment. And you probably know what came from that, but when I kind of laid down the crazy stick, we're just going to call it the crazy stick. When I laid down the crazy stick, when I laid down that kind of veil of fear, I was able to show up differently. I was able to be more creative. I was able to be more gracious and generous. And the response I have seen from my team members has been incredible, right? Because I fell into that trap over the last 12 months. And if they're listening to this, which I'm sure they are, they're probably nodding their heads, my team members, because I fell into that trap of going, people just don't understand. They're not engaged, they don't care as much as they once did. I find that to be not true at all. It was a total misperception because they were acting one way because I was acting one way. So I'm my fingers are crossed that what you are onto here is real and that this wave will keep going for KidGlov. Because I feel like me as a leader showing up differently is going to change everything. What do you think?

Matt Poepsel: 12:36

I think it's an incredible amount of self-awareness that you're describing to us. And I think it is such a relatable use case and situation that you're in. And I I'm so glad that you're leading by example that you've made a decision to change your approach because you want to change the future outcome for your business, for your team members, and for yourself. So I think if if I could, can I pull this apart a little bit?

Lyn Wineman: 12:58

Please do. I'd love for you to. I feel like I'm getting a free coaching session. So Matt, I appreciate that greatly. And for everyone listening, here's a sample of what Matt does. Yeah.

Matt Poepsel: 13:09

Well, yeah, and I'll just tell you, there's very wet paint because this is like us uh looking at my notes together, my field notes, right? So let's call it that. But I'm actively doing research in this area and I find it completely fascinating. I think the first part is that you just started by telling the story about the forces. You know, you mentioned that businesses had started closing their doors in a way that you hadn't seen in a long, long time. And the first thing that I would point out is that we are going through a time, as we talked about earlier, of incredible change when it comes to technological innovation, the economic headwinds. We didn't really talk about it yet, but generational shifts. Business models are fundamentally changing. And that is here's the hard part for a lot of executives and employees to understand. This is a very natural thing. When organizations and systems like our economic systems, our businesses, our teams, these are complex environments. And as complexity continues to grow, there's a natural force in physics called entropy. Entropy is just a natural devolution into disorder that just naturally happens in any system. Of course, it happens in human systems too. So it's a little bit nerdy to call it entropy, but it's true. We've entered the entropy economy.

Lyn Wineman: 14:21

Matt, I have not heard the word entropy. I can't even think of the last time I heard the word entropy, right?

Matt Poepsel: 14:28

Right. We don't talk about it. We don't think about it in this way, but it's so true. So what's happening now is that the pace of acceleration of change, the nature of the forces, they're causing us to fragment our teams, our organizations, our economies in a way that's faster than we can hold them together, basically. And it always takes energy to try to keep a system together. So when I say that we've entered the entropy economy, it's because we have so much information coming in, so much innovation, technological revolution, all these market forces shifting. So something very natural is happening, but it doesn't feel natural at all. How do we feel it? We feel fearful because things that we had just the way we wanted them are starting to break apart. Natural or not, it feels not great. So what happens is when that fear response kicks in, we start to use words like closed. So instead of being open-minded, I'm a little bit more closed, I'm a little tight-fist, a little more controlling. What that means is that my self-interest and my self-orientation is going up because that fear response, that threat is kicking in. But when that happens to executives, guess what? It's happening to employees too. They're saying, I'm on LinkedIn, and every time I look, some company has laid off a thousand people with an email. I just saw one of my college roommates just got laid off. Oh no, like what's going to happen to me, right?

Totally natural. Again, a totally natural response. But when employees and employers are all feeling this sort of uh a personal threat, and we're all retreating to our own self-interest, then we're not collaborating, we're not communicating, we're not working together, we're not holding ourselves together. And that's what's happened now between the employer-employee rift that's recently taken place. So we see employers that are saying, employees are lazy, we're going to take away these perks. No more flexibility. You're going to return to office. No more, you know, these uh a four-day work week, try a six-day work week, right? You're seeing this move back to this sort of employer control because it's coming from a place of fear. Yeah. Employees look at that and say, you're just trying to automate us out of jobs. You want some sort of bro culture where we don't even have employees anymore. It's just computers making you millions of dollars. And you're like, wait, whoa, time out. You mentioned this earlier, this misperception. I call it the great misreading. We're all looking at each other and pointing blame, right? When in reality, we should be looking at this forces of entropy that are pulling us apart and saying, that's what we need to overcome, right? It's not you're lazy or you're greedy or anything else. It's a matter of saying what's happening to us was the natural and inevitable byproduct of rising complexity in the way that we do our work. So that brings us back to the leaders, right? Wow. What is it that we can do to try to overcome and to offset these forces of entropy, natural as they may be? And I think exactly what you said, Lyn, is important. You have to recognize, first of all, and have that self-awareness of saying, my current response is a very me-centric response. I'm feeling fear, I'm closing off, I'm trying to establish control in an area that requires fluidity, flexibility, collaboration, communication, all these cooperation, these things. So in my research, what I have found is that we need an energy that's going to reverse the course of this entropy that's pulling us apart, something that's going to help us draw ourselves back together, create alignment and order and harmony again. And that energy, Lyn, that I found is commitment. 

Lyn Wineman: 18:00

Commitment, you know what? I did not expect you to say that. I was in my mind, I was thinking, what's he gonna say? What's he gonna say? Commitment. All right, tell me more. Why is commitment? And also, I just want to, before we let it go, I love your characterization of the great misreading, right? I think that gets called so many things, the generational gap, like all the things, the great misreading. That is just so spot on. And I think, Matt, part of the reason the misreading happens is because we're all on Zoom. You and I are on Zoom right now too. And I love Zoom as a tool, but I don't get to see the body language. I don't get to like see you come into the room and go, oh, I can tell something's up with Matt today. You know, I don't get to, I don't have you in the office and get to experience the fact that you might be dealing with something that I'm a hundred percent unaware of, and I can be a hundred percent unaware of it because we're not in the same office space sharing those experiences anymore.

Matt Poepsel: 19:03

I think it's almost like ironic that they're we're more connected than ever, but we're also more disconnected than ever because Zoom is not real life, it's not real connection in the same way, right? So we've sacrificed and lost something, even though we think we've gained something. Or at least let's just say that it's ironic here or paradoxical in that way. But I feel like what's happening is that there's still separation, even over Zoom. And I think one thing that we didn't really account for is the fact that this massive shift to remote and hybrid work has really led to a sense of isolation and loneliness that we had not bargained for, that we just didn't kind of do the math on that or understand that that was going to happen. We've never seen the levels of isolation and loneliness in our workforce that we are now. And I personally believe that this remote and the Zoom fatigue is a big part of it because it almost like it feels like it should be real, but it's not real in a sense of of true, authentic human connection. 

Lyn Wineman: 20:00

Commitment. Take us back to commitment now because I want to know. Like that is not what I expected you to say. So, how does commitment solve this?

Matt Poepsel: 20:09

Yeah, when we hear the word commitment, we think about something that's like an affect. Oh, I feel committed. It's an emotion almost. And that's not how I'm describing it at all. I've come to find that commitment isn't actually a human energy. It's a form of energy that actually holds together and brings together human systems. So in this case of a team, let's say, for example, when there's commitment on the team, then all of a sudden what it does is it helps draw us closer together. So instead of drifting apart, which is what entropy is doing to us, now all of a sudden we can use the energy of commitment to bring ourselves back together and make everything more efficient. And I'm going to say, Lyn, that this is part of what you've been experiencing really 60 to 90 days. Yeah. Because when you think about the components of commitment as I define it as an energy source, there's three. The first is around hope, the hopefulness about the future. Seeing that there is a positive future state, that we can work toward it together, that we can actually take actions that are going to lead us to that place. These are all elements of hope.

If all of a sudden you were to walk in saying, what's the point? It's useless. Walk to your team, like they wouldn't have responded the way they did, but you're saying, you know what? We can do this, right? The second one is around mutuality. So, how do we find this the way that all the team members get to participate and benefit? And you're not walking in saying, you know, I'm going to make a ton of money and nobody else is like that. That would never work. Who would be committed in that way? Nobody would be committed to that. Nobody would be. And it wouldn't go the other way either. If employees were going to get over on the employer, that's not mutual either. So we need to make sure that all team members on a relative basis are feeling that they're participating in both the effort and the outcome, right? That's that mutuality that sometimes is missing. And what happens is when we retreat to our self-interest, then all of a sudden distrust rises. Now I don't think there's mutuality. I can't see what you're doing if you don't come to the office and I don't trust you. So you're probably folding laundry instead of doing work for me on my payroll. Like all this stuff you hear about, and you're like, wait a second. That's a breakdown of mutuality, right? And the last one, real quickly, is synchrony. I call it synchrony.

Yeah. When you think about like a crew boat and you see them with their oars in the water. There's somebody saying, you know, stroke, stroke.

Lyn Wineman: 22:15

Yeah, boys in the boat, one of my favorite movies.

Matt Poepsel: 22:17

Boys in the boat. Exactly. And that's one of the examples of the most efficient way to deploy that energy toward doing meaningful work and holding the team together is if we do it in synchrony. And so when you think about a team that works together, not at odds, not when we have competing goals, or I'm going to go do my thing and I got to make sure my dashboard numbers for the CEO look good. And I don't care about your numbers, I only care about myself. That's not synchrony. That's the opposite. And that's a that's an inefficient system. It's an inefficient way of deploying all the organization's energy. So taken together these three things when they're present, all of a sudden create an energy that draws us back together. So I like to consider it in terms of loops. If you have a really big, big circle and we have to pass information around, it's super inefficient. But when you draw that in, all of a sudden that loop gets tighter and tighter, and we're all standing right next to each other, almost like arm in arm, and we have to pass information, it goes super fast and efficient. We're all in it together, we're all at the same level here. So we want to tighten those loops. That's how I like to think about it. So this brings us back to your role. And exactly what you did instinctively, which in my parlance is to recognize the fact that something needed to change and to recognize that if you operate exclusively from the place of fear, fear destroys everything good in relationships and organizations.

Lyn Wineman: 23:38

Wow, that is so true. I just want to say it again. And Matt, I'm even going to tell you, I believe that fear is even somewhat addictive, right? Like it's a neural pattern that you get used to falling into. And then it's like you have dug yourself a rut and it's hard to get out of it.

Matt Poepsel: 24:04

And fear comes from ego. Ego's way of keeping us safe is to use fear to pull and to make sure that we have super hypervigilance, that we're aware of what can hurt us. It's a survival mechanism. But when it goes on overdrive and we don't do the actual thinking, we just let it win out, then it leads us to some not so great places. Fear is a destructive force, it doesn't create anything. Only unity, right? Love, these types of things. Yeah, these are the creative forces. So instead, what we have to do is we have to recognize that we're wired for empathy, just like we're wired for fear. And so we make a more of a deliberate choice about where our attention goes, what we're going to honor. You know, from an emotional agility perspective, Dr. Susan David would say, well, you want to feel the fear. Don't try to pretend like you're not feeling fear, but allow it to dissipate, right? Have a little bit of agility. Don't try to be so fixed with it. So we're not judging the fear, but at the same time, we're not letting it cloud us and close us off and keep us from showing up for others. And in my parlance, uh, being able to demonstrate this type of commitment-boosting behaviors as leaders that are going to bring our team closer together as opposed to continuing to even push them apart, much less let them drift apart. So when you decided, for example, to open up and to make yourself vulnerable with the team and to instead of saying, I have to do everything if this is going to work out, start to say, I'm going to allow others to participate. Now all of a sudden, they got to feel your hope. They got to experience that mutuality of we're actually going to get to do something instead of Lynn just kind of holding all the cards for herself, making all the decisions. I guess I'm not really able to contribute. Now I feel a loss of control. So now I'm even more afraid than ever. So that's the downward spiral. You created the upward spiral of drawing people back together in that way. And the last part about synchrony is I'm sure your day-to-day meetings have changed in this new environment where you started to at least reduce some of that fear, increase the sharing, shared fate, create shared milestones, rekindle your purpose and vision because Kid Glove is such an amazing organization. Let's not lose sight of that. Thank you.

Lyn Wineman: 26:07

I'm very proud. I'm very proud of the team. But you know, we like others, just have our moments. I like others, just have my moments, right? I am very human.

Matt Poepsel: 26:17

Yes, absolutely. And that's going to continue to happen, especially again, in an era in when we're operating in an entropy economy. It's inevitable. It's inevitable. So when you start to see that AI comes in and you start to see economic headwinds change the way people spend marketing dollars and we're caught up in all, yes, we're part of a very complex system. But the reality is that if we want to hold ourselves together, we need energy to do that. That energy comes from commitment. And so by by boosting that commitment, and then all of a sudden, that's how you get back performance. That's how you get back engagement, employee well-being. That's how you get back basically our potential, right? 

Lyn Wineman: 26:56

Matt, I'm gonna say too, it happened slowly, slowly, slowly, and then more quickly, quickly, quickly, right? Like I think that people needed to take a moment and go, is this real? Like, is this real? Is this gonna stay like this? Or are we just gonna snap back tomorrow into that fear mode, right?

Matt Poepsel: 27:15

Sure. Yeah, because I think trust is one of those things that it's quick to squander or to lose, but it takes time to gain. And it's just like anything else. I think that that prolonged exposure, that that constant, continuous effort to expend the energy, and it takes a lot of energy. Yeah. So this is where we have to ask ourselves, like as leaders, what we have to remember is that we operate in what are known as open systems. We can bring in energy from the outside. Where is it going to come from? In your case, it comes from your mission and purpose. It comes from your clients. Think about how many of uh your clients have gone on to benefit their communities, their stakeholder groups, and you're a part of that because you've helped them in their way. So when you bring in from the mission, you draw energy in from the future, right? And from the stakeholders, there's places we can draw energy. We can celebrate employees who are learning new skills in a post-AI world that creates energy. We can do all these things that we have to draw on those sources, but most leaders don't understand they're in the energy business. They just watch and they think they're in the information business. No. And in the entropy economy, without channeling that type of energy, that's going to lead to further and further fragmentation and dissolution.

Lyn Wineman: 28:26

You know what, Matt, I have known you and thought of you as the godfather of talent optimization. You are now the godfather of commitment to me. How about that?

Matt Poepsel: 28:36

I love it, Lyn. Thank you. Yes, it's fascinating to kind of see. And I think if we are, if we permit ourselves to take a step back and look at what is happening around here.

And I think that two things happen when we take a fresh look and we're like, oh, this makes sense now, but also we don't have to judge it. We don't have to, what we can't do is pretend we can go backwards.

Pretend that things are going to be simple again someday. They're not. But instead, I think realizing that we can be hopeful because there's absolutely something we can do, which is to draw our people closer to us, right? To use these techniques to be able to say, how do we navigate this uncertain future together? That should fill us with hope because you know we do have the agency, we do have the opportunity, if not the responsibility, to move together and to take our people with us as we go.

Lyn Wineman: 29:31

I love it, Matt. Matt, you are so knowledgeable on this topic. And I know you are right in the middle of the research, but I I just want to ask one more question because I feel like if I didn't ask this, I'd kind of be leaving an open situation. And my next question is do you have any at this state in the game, do you have any practical advice for us? Like anybody who's maybe in the situation that I've been in, that is feeling the entropy economy, that is feeling the great misreading, what are some practical steps that we can take to kind of get back into that commitment energy of hope, mutuality, and synchrony?

Matt Poepsel: 30:12

Yeah, I think when you look at this entropy commitment cycle, right? I think the first part is let's understand the divergent forces, if you will. Let's name it. What is affecting our business? Because you might say, for example, no, it's not AI that's keeping us up at night. That may or may not be true for your employees, right? So let's all come together, let's create a space where we can have the conversation and let's walk through it together. So, some common examples AI disruption, market forces, meaning like uh economic contraction, et cetera, budget constraints, et cetera.

What about generational differences? What about other types of divisiveness that can take place? Sometimes there's internal complexity about, well, we just acquired two other companies, we haven't fully absorbed them yet. Okay, great. So let's name it. Let's not let something go unsaid and sort of have this invisible force on us. So understanding what the forces and then without judging them and saying, okay, these are realities, complexities in our world that are creating, if we don't do anything about it, that they have the potential to pull us apart a little bit here. Let's name that. But then let's talk about what are those practices we can use to hold ourselves together. And let's find out what the team needs that they may not be getting. Is it agency? Is it trust? Is it clarity? Is it hope? Is it meaning and purpose? Is it decency, respect, is it like communication, whatever it is. So I think that by naming the forces that are threatening to pull us apart, but then also the forces in our control that we can lean into that the group feels, remember mutuality. It's not just the CEO get to say what the answer is. No, no, no. Mutuality says we all get a say in what the answer is. Then we can kind of figure out what are the most important things that we need to, levers we need to pull to pull ourselves back together. And what does that look like? What does that feel like? And then work toward that over time. That's the way that we can bring in that energy we need to hold ourselves together in a world that's increasingly trying to pull us apart.

Lyn Wineman: 32:10

Wow, such good advice. What I wrote down here is name the forces, know their potential to pull us apart, figure out what the team needs and go into action.

Matt Poepsel: 32:20

Give the people what they want. Absolutely.

Lyn Wineman: 32:22

Wow, give the people what they want. I love it. Matt, that is all so good. I want to take this to a couple of other questions and kind of get out of the heart of it and talk more about you and what you're doing because I know that you've been doing a lot more speaking lately. I know you've got your podcast. Do you have any upcoming events or episodes that we should be aware of? And you know what? If you'd like to plug that podcast, we'll make sure we've got the link to it in the show notes as well.

Matt Poepsel: 32:54

Oh, that'd be great. Yes, I love the I love hosting my podcast. It's called Lead the People. You know, I like to say it's for middle managers on a mission. I hear really those people that don't run the place, but they're kind of uh very interested in in making a huge difference both for their businesses, for their people, and for themselves. And have just really enjoyed the list of guests that we had there. You mentioned the speaking. I love giving my talks, workshops, MC. I like doing all those things, which has been a lot of fun to get in front of audiences and really start sharing some of these insights and in ways that we can actually turn around our businesses, our schools, our communities. I think what we're facing is not a business problem, it's a human problem, it's a societal problem. And I think that some of these uh insights are very applicable in a variety of different human settings, which I was totally delighted by, Lyn. I'm classically trained in the business world, but I think uh catching a tiger by the tail here and talking about the potential we have in all of our human systems has been really rewarding. And the last thing I'd say real quickly is that I do teach graduate school at Boston College, and I really have enjoyed being in the classroom, working with emerging leaders and experienced leaders to talk about what we call human flourishing. So it's not just enough to put up the business results, of course, we have to do that, but also the team results, the potential, the impact, and something a little bit more existential and satisfying. And that's why we use that term of human flourishing. So I love what I do, and I love being able to share my notes with you and your audience as I as we continue to kind of figure this stuff all out together.

Lyn Wineman: 34:23

I so appreciate that, Matt. And I think there will be no shortage of research for you to do because as soon as you've got this one figured out, the next wave will come in. So for our listeners who really are loving this topic and want to find out more, what is the best way for them to connect with you or find out more about all of these things that you're working on?

Matt Poepsel: 34:46

Yeah, as you mentioned, LinkedIn is a great place. I love hanging out on LinkedIn. I share insights as I have them and really love uh engaging in community and conversation over there. So that's probably the easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn.

Lyn Wineman: 34:58

Fantastic. Thanks for that, Matt. All right, Matt, you've been on this podcast before. So you know the next question I'm gonna ask you. Our listeners know that I am inspired by motivational quotes. I would love a Matt Pepsil original to inspire our listeners. And you know what? Just for reference, as a bonus, when you were on in 2024, you gave us this gem, Beliefs Break Down Barriers, which I would say still applies to everything you've said today, but I'm gonna make you give us a new quote.

Matt Poepsel: 35:31

Well, my new quote is this one leaders are healers of separation. I feel so intentional about the leadership responsibility we have in terms of the human outcomes that we can produce. The fact is that we are called upon to, yes, again, to deliver those business results, but to do it to the benefit of our team. And that's the legacy we're really going to leave. And when we think about how it feels when people feel separate and isolated and alone, it's devastating, not just to our businesses, to our teamwork, but even to the human soul, however you define that for yourself. So when I say leaders are healers of separation, we have to recognize that we're experiencing a lot of distress and tearing of our fabric today. And I find that there's no higher calling than to act as a leader in your community, in your business, whatever that means for you, and really recognize your opportunity to heal that separation and help people feel whole again, as opposed to as fragmented as we do otherwise.

Lyn Wineman: 36:28

Wow, Matt, that is so good, so amazing. I'm really curious. My last question today, I'm curious as to what you're gonna say. But as we wrap up this time together, what is the most important thing you want people to remember about the work that you're doing?

Matt Poepsel: 36:46

I think that it's accessible to us all. We have this opportunity that at whatever level and whatever span of control, whatever term you want to use, being a leader is not reserved for executives or people at the corner office or some fancy title. You act as a leader based on how you show up in the world and the way that you serve others, the way that you interact, the way that you leave a place better than you found it. So we're all leaders in that regard. So I think don't sell yourself short in terms of your opportunity and your chance to make a difference. Because again, in a connected system like ours, every little bit helps. Anytime you leave somebody a little brighter and bring them a little closer together, you've done the job of a leader and we need that.

Lyn Wineman: 37:25

I love that. Well, Matt, I'm certainly feeling a little brighter, a little more connected. We're now gonna call you the godfather of connection. I'm gonna say I fully believe the world needs more people like you. Thank you so much, Matt, for sharing this information today.

Matt Poepsel: 37:43

Thanks so much for having me, Lyn. It's been a pleasure.

Announcer: 37:47

We hope you enjoyed today's Agency for Change podcast. To hear all our interviews with those who are making a positive change in our communities, or to nominate a change maker you'd love to hear from, visit kidglov.com at kidglov dot com to get in touch. As always, if you like what you've heard today, be sure to rate, review, subscribe, and share. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.