Agency for Change : A Podcast from KidGlov

Changemaker Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, Author, TedX Speaker, Trainer, EQ via Empathy

• KidGlov • Season 1 • Episode 267

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Want a culture where people speak up, solve problems, and actually enjoy working together? We sit down with Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, TEDx speaker, EQ coach, and author of The Empathetic Leader, to show how empathy shifts teams from fear and friction to trust and momentum. Practical empathy that leaders can apply now to spark innovation, raise engagement, and grow profit.

Melissa shares a striking turnaround story: a mid-level director inherits a divided team with lagging engagement and chooses a simple route—show up daily, listen closely, and be human. Within weeks, ideas surface, workflows improve, and the profit needle finally moves. This isn’t about lowering standards; it’s about understanding context so you can use the right emotional intelligence tool at the right time.

Welcome to the Agency for Change podcast.

Connect with Melissa and EQ via Empathy at: 

·       Website – http://eqviaempathy.com/

·       Get Melissa’s book, The Empathetic Leader: https://eqviaempathy.com/books/

·       Get a free chapter of the book: http://eq-via-empathy.kit.com/6f8715f3c2

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Empathy is a practice, not a performance.

Announcer:

Welcome to Agency for Change, a podcast from Kid Club that brings you the stories of change makers who are actively working to improve our community. In every episode, we'll meet with people who are making a lasting impact in the places we call homes.

Lyn Wineman:

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Agency for Change podcast. This is Lynn Weineman, president and chief strategist at KidGlove. Today's guest is on a mission to transform the way we all think about leadership. Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller is a TEDx speaker, she's an EQ coach, and she's the author of a book called The Empathetic Leader. She has more than 20 years of cross-industry experience where she's helping leaders build emotionally intelligent cultures that not only feel better, here's the key, they perform better. She is here to talk to us about why empathy isn't just a soft skill, it is the key to driving real results. Dr. Robinson Wine Miller, I cannot wait to dive into this topic with you. Welcome to the podcast.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Thank you so much for having me, Lynn. I mean, since we are the wine women, right? I love that. Wine and the wine miller in the same place.

Lyn Wineman:

This is exciting. It is exciting. And can I ask your permission for something? Would it be okay since you and I are somewhat friendly? Could I call you Melissa throughout this? Yes, you can. All right. I want to honor that title because I know how much work goes into it and I know how how smart and knowledgeable you are. And I cannot wait to get into this conversation. I'd love to start by just having you tell us more about your work and EQ via empathy.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You bet. So I actually came to this um through a lot of personal experience, through seeing some of the way leadership maybe didn't empathize and connect and understand with their people like they could have, and how they were losing profit and productivity innovation because of it. I mean, that's that's really the crux of it, is they were losing out because of what they weren't doing. Yeah. And I had done some consulting in healthcare with my husband before this. And, you know, there was, I was a musician for a long time. I had seen it in that field, and it was just kind of like there, there's a pattern here. There's something that I need to look at. So that's when I started kind of digging in and trying to figure out how I could make this something that was skills-based instead of just kind of this fluffy puppies and rainbows empathy kind of thing.

Lyn Wineman:

Okay, I love that you said that because I do think sometimes that's what people think. And I feel like I've been in business for quite a long time. I got my start in the late 80s and early 90s. I'm gonna date myself there. But I was taught as a woman in business to be tough, to be smart, to be in control. I worked very hard to do all of those things. I think for 20 years, I probably didn't wear pink. I didn't talk about my family. I tried as hard as I could to espouse the opposite of empathy. And I'm so glad that at this point in time, I get to talk to leaders like you who are saying, you know what's important in business? Empathy and love. And so I really love, because I know you have studied this topic quite a lot and it's the subject of your book, but why is it so important to bring empathy into leadership at this point in time?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Because at the end of the day, all organizations are about people, whether it's your employees, whether it's your customers, whether it's your board, whoever. And what empathy really is about more than feeling is understanding and connection. So if you really want to have an organization that's supercharged for the future, connecting with your best resource, which is people, is what's going to do that.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

And the cool thing is, is you can be tough, you can be, you know, driven, you can be intelligent and still have empathy. That's a myth that you can't.

Lyn Wineman:

So I mean, not that you bought into it, but some people that's really that's really important because you kind of think sometimes, and I'm sure that I have been fooled by that as well. It's got to be an either or, but you're right. Those those characteristics are not mutually exclusive. You can be empathetic and tough and smart, which, which I know that you are, are those things as well. So yeah. Now, now, now now I know better than that. So, so I'm really curious then in your work, what are some ways you've seen emotionally intelligent leadership transform organizations?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Just with that connection, that personal connection, I mean, it can change culture. It can change, it actually can lead to profit productivity and innovation.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So let me give you an example of a director that I was working with because I really like those middle positions. Yeah. Because I get to lead both up and down.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow. And they are in a tough position too, I think. Those middle positions, middle managers, that can be such a lonely place.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yes, it absolutely can, which is all the more a reason why connection and understanding, you know, which is what empathy is, really helps them out. So I was working with this director, and of course they're like, well, come in and change our culture. Never mind that the culture was coming down from the top, and they're expecting him to change it in the middle. But, you know, the employee engagement scores were terrible. The department he was taking over, there'd been a lot of friction. There was some outlying um bits of it that just had never felt as part of it. And so he's he's looking at me and he's like, Okay, what do I need to do for this? I'm like, you've got to connect with your people, which means they've got to know your actual human being that lives and breathes and walks around. So I want you to actually go out and see and be seen every single day. And I don't mean that you have to go and do three-hour coffee clutch, you just need to know who your people are and let them know that you're someone that can be known, can be liked, and can be trusted. And he did. And over a period of time, his people started coming to him. And it didn't take very long, you know, because they had ideas for better efficiencies because they live in it every single day.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah, yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

They've had these ideas for years and nobody was listening. But all of a sudden they had someone that they knew and they kind of liked, or at least they didn't dislike. Yeah, yeah, they were growing to trust. So they bring him these efficiencies, and you know, to be able to create a better center where he was at, to be able to just clean up some long-standing problems to do that sort of thing. And the next thing you know, these become innovations, right? Through these innovations, because they're able to do their job better, their productivity goes up. Plus, they feel they're being heard, they feel they're being understood, they're feeling like part of a team. It's helping with the loyalty, it's cleaning up some of the goodwill issues that had been going on forever. And it started to instill this culture, even at the middle, that this is what they do. They listen and they work as a team.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Next thing you know, the profit for his center went up for the first time in years. And now his higher-ups are looking at him and going, How did you do that? Your employee engagement scores went from like the 50s to the 90s. We've never seen it. How did you do that?

Lyn Wineman:

Wow.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. You know, and it was just a matter of actually connecting with his people on a human level. That's all it took.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow. Why is it so hard for humans to be human, Melissa? Like that is the question that comes to mind.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

I I don't have an answer for that. I don't know. Because I have the same response. I'm like, why is this? We're just we're asking you to do what humans do.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. As you were giving that example, and that is just such a great example. I heard you say three things, and then I heard you actually repeat them in the storytelling. And I'm curious if there's, you know, any connection here. When we read your book, will we read more about this? But you said you advised this leader to get out, walk around so he could become known, become liked, and become trusted. I'm guessing those are really important parts of the formula, the connection here. Can you can you tell us more?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. So when you think about the super top leaders, right? And and not necessarily because it's their fault, but they're people that are usually closed up in their office. Yeah. That they don't get out.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

That their people have no idea who they are. So they're just like a name. And if they ever do come out of their office, everybody thinks something's wrong.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah, right, right.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Someone's getting fired. Yeah, what's what's she doing here? Yeah, yeah. Right. But they're missing the opportunity for people to actually get to know them human to human. So in our human brains, we just see them as this figurehead instead of being someone that not only we can give empathy to, but can return it. Yeah. Because empathy, when it's working best, goes in both directions.

Lyn Wineman:

Both directions. All right. Since you said that about both directions, there's another question that I've rattling in around in my head. Do you have any thoughts on empathy towards self? Oh, absolutely. Self-empathy. Yeah, right. Like that's sometimes that's the hardest one. When I interact with somebody who's like very harsh and outwardly judgmental, I often think, wow, they must be, they must really be hard on themselves as well. Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. And that's exactly what I see with the leaders I work with too. Because usually they're very ambitious. They're very highly self-actualized. They're driven. I mean, these are these are people that are gunners. They know what they want and they know how to get there. But in the process, they often lose track of themselves, which is why leaders burn out at like 35%. You know, you end up with addiction issues, you end up with family issues, all of this stuff. And it's because they don't know how to show empathy for themselves first. Plus, if you can't show it for yourself, how are you going to show it for anybody else?

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah. Wow, that is that is good stuff. So, what do you say to people who ask you or challenge you on whether um having empathy, acting with empathy is actually practical, right? I mean, sometimes there is that belief that, you know, showing empathy is going to mean that you get walked all over or it's going to be expensive to show empathy, right? Because maybe you're going to, I don't know, make some adaptations or give people, you know, more time off. Or I don't know. I'm just going through in my head what all of those objections towards practical empathy might be.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So there was an Ernst ⁇ Young survey that happened right after the end of the pandemic. And it was specifically looking at the great resignation. And they surveyed leaders, they surveyed employees, they surveyed all of it. And what they found was that the leaders that could actively and effectively use empathy raised their productivity by 87%, their innovation by 86%, and their profit by 84%. And this is not Melissa's opinion. This is Ernst and Young, who have had their own problems in the last couple of years, but all the same.

Lyn Wineman:

Right. That's amazing. I mean, because that number improving by 87%, 86%, 84%. I mean, that's almost doubling, right? And I think a lot of us would walk the desert for a 20% improvement, right? And so just to know, like having understanding of people and doing your three things to be known, be liked, and trusted, that can give you that kind of results. Amazing. I'm so happy that this survey and this research and your work is coming to light. And I'm curious, Melissa, how does someone like you become an empathy and EQ expert? Right. Like I'm really curious. You mentioned you worked with your husband, you were in healthcare consulting, but you know, that's a pretty big jump to really like saying, I am gonna make this the focus of what I'm doing.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So it actually started out before then. Okay. I I was a musician, I was a French horizont. Oh, I love that. Oh, I got to tour in Rome, I got to play with people like Ray Charles and Mannheim Steamroller, and these aren't people that were in my orbit. Yeah, those are big names. We all know those names. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but unfortunately, being a gigging musician, I'm also hopelessly addicted to food, shelter, and clothing. So I knew that if I wanted to have benefits and that kind of thing, I was gonna have to get my doctorate and probably be a professor. And that's what I did. And I found a French horn professorship and I got it. And I went out there and within my first semester. Um, so like within months of being there, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues.

Lyn Wineman:

Oh wow. I'm sorry.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Wow. Thank you. Thank you. And the more I talk about this, actually, the more people come forward and they go, Yeah, I had stuff like that happen to me too in a toxic workplace.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

And that's really what it comes down to is this place was so systemically broken that it was completely toxic. And I ended up losing my career over it. And I'm not the only one. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people end up going through this. The problem with being a French horn player is I got out kind of in my mid-40s, and it's like, now what do I do? I don't really know.

Lyn Wineman:

You probably weren't set for retirement on the pay that you made as a French horn player, even though you were very good and traveled with big acts. Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. No, it was it was fantastic, but I mean, you know, starving musician is is what it is. Yeah. So I just but the thing is, is I lost a career I dedicated my life to, and I just couldn't let it go. I just kept coming back to what was the problem. What was so broken that they were fine taking this stuff away, that they were fine breaking people and just leaving them. And I kept coming back to this lack of connection, which just kept coming back to empathy. And then after that, I was doing consulting with my husband, and I was seeing the same things over and over again, you know, that that people were fine just not connecting and not understanding and allowing these horrible toxic situations to just be because they didn't even know how to begin addressing it. It was so huge, you know, even if it's a small organization, it's such a looming problem of what do I do with this, assuming they want to do anything about it at all.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So that's what got me on the track of empathy. And I started digging around and looking for a leadership program, and I found the one there at Creighton. Yeah.

Lyn Wineman:

Creighton is not far. I'm based. Most of you know I'm based in Nebraska. Kid Glove has an office in Omaha where Creighton is just a wonderful school, a wonderful medical center, a great community. Yeah. That's great. You know, I'm really interested as you talk about this in your journey, um, because the music industry is really kind of known for chewing people up and spitting them out. I too work in an industry advertising that, you know, if you watch a lot of the shows on advertising, known for chewing people up and spitting them out. And that's why our brand, Kid Glove, is all about treating people with kid gloves. We wanted from our foundation to be the kind of place that treats both people and brands with great care. So at the time we were founded in 2010, I didn't really have the words empathy. I mean, I knew what the word empathy meant, but we weren't talking about empathy in business at the time. Just naming ourselves Kid Glove was a little bit out there, but I feel somewhat vindicated in that, you know, what we thought at the time is really coming to fruition. And I think the world is going to be a much better place as we continue to do this work. And so part of doing this work is let's look at this book that you wrote. It's a it's a fairly new book, The Empathetic Leader. Can you tell us about it and what you hope the people who read it will take away?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So I kind of wrote it like a manual, you know, because we actually talk about the book specifically zeroes in on how you use empathy to connect with emotional intelligence.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Because the first article on emotional intelligence came out in 1990. And then Daniel Goldman's really 95.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow. It just wasn't like it wasn't like a big thing, right? Like I remember the concepts of leadership by walking around and who moved my cheese was kind of a big one. I mean, I think Patrick Lencioni and the five dysfunctions of a team was kind of becoming of age at that time, but empathy was a little bit, a little bit quieter. It was a little bit more woo-woo at the time, right? Whereas I feel like it's coming mainstream now.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Well, it's always been lumped in with emotional intelligence. Ah, yeah. You know, whereas I really think it has to come first. I think you've got to understand and connect. Because if you think of emotional intelligence as a big tool bag, right? You got communication and motivation, and you've got hammers and saws and chisels and all this stuff in this tool bag. If you don't connect and understand with your people first, you don't know when you reach into that bag if you want a saw or a left-handed screwdriver.

Announcer:

Yeah.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah. I, you know, I really think we have to start with empathy. And I think that may be where some of the disconnect is.

Lyn Wineman:

It's foundational, right? If you jump straight to some of the other strategies, some of the other tools without the understanding. That makes so much sense, Melissa. Like, I don't know if you could see or feel a light bulb going off on top of my head, but it's like, oh, that that what you just said there connects the dots for me. So where can we get this book? Is it on Amazon? Is it on your website? Where can we find it?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You can get it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or any of the online real tellers. And right now we have a hardcover, a soft cover, and Kindle. And there will be an audiobook coming out here, hopefully in the next month or so.

Lyn Wineman:

Awesome. You and I will have to talk because our book at Kid Glove, Untangling Spaghetti, a branding fable, that audiobook is underway. And I love audiobooks, so I feel bad that it's not out there yet. But audiobooks take a lot of time to do, don't they?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah, they do.

Lyn Wineman:

Are you are you and you're reading it yourself? Yes. I love an author-red audiobook. So good for you. We'll keep an eye out for that. And we'll make sure to get links to that book in the show notes. So, Melissa, I do want to ask you a question. I mentioned, and a lot of people know, Kid Glove does a lot of work in the branding space. So I'm always curious about people's brands. And I love that you have the word empathy right in your brand name. What does that EQ via empathy brand name mean to you?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So, what it means, it goes along with the book that you're looking at emotional intelligence through the lens of empathy. So, you know, that's the EQ, because EQ is short for emotional intelligence. EQ via empathy. Emotional intelligence has seen through the lens of empathy, but a whole lot shorter.

Lyn Wineman:

All right. I have a merchandising idea for you. I think empathy goggles should be next on your list once that audio book is done. Empathy goggles, right? I like that. All right. We'll see. We'll see. What other than empathy goggles? What's on the horizon for you and EQ via empathy? So I've already started on book two. Wow. I tell you what, so many people I know write that first book and go, never again. And you have already started. Wow. Well, tell us more. What should we be looking out for?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Well, the second one I want to actually be for anybody. This is going to be about empathy in daily life, empathy with how people experience it, you know? Yeah. Rather than just targeting leaders, this one's going to be pretty much for anybody.

Lyn Wineman:

So beautiful.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Yeah.

Lyn Wineman:

I love it. So for someone who wants to bring more empathy into the way they lead, people who are listening, what's one practical first step you can recommend for them?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Start with self-empathy.

Lyn Wineman:

Oh. I love that. Probably the hardest, too, right? Yes. Start with self-empathy. I love it. So for our listeners who are listening, going to get excited or are excited about this, actually, let me, this is a good place for me too. That was a bad start to that question. So, Melissa, for everyone who's been listening who's really excited about learning more, in addition to the links to the book, where can they mo find more information about you and EQ via empathy?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

You can catch me at my website, which is eqviaempathy.com. Nice. And yeah, there is a link for the book. And if you sign up for my newsletter, I will send you a free chapter of the book so you can take a look and see what's actually in there, you know, so that you kind of you kind of have an appetizer.

Lyn Wineman:

I love it. My copy of the book is is in route on the way, but I'm definitely gonna go sign up for that. And we'll have that link in the show notes as well. All right, I'm gonna ask you a fun question, and I'm sure as an author, as a TEDx speaker, you are gonna have a great answer for this. But our listeners know I am inspired by motivational quotes. And I would like an original quote from you to inspire our listeners. So this is coming from the musician. Oh that empathy is a practice, not a performance. Wow, tell me more. I think I know what you mean by that, but I'd love to go deeper. It's such a beautiful quote.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So practice you do every day, every day, every day. If you're a performing musician, I mean hours, every day. Even when you think you've got it, you still go back and practice it more. And that's exactly what empathy is. It's something you you do as a skill every day and every day. Performance is something you do one time and then you say, okay, that's it. And that's that's not, you don't pull empathy out at the once-a-year, you know, all organization meeting and then say you're done with it. You practice it every day, every day.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow. Empathy is a practice, not a performance. I've said this before, but I feel like I'd really love that as a poster right behind my shoulder here. Someday I'm gonna have my whole office just wallpapered with quote posters from this podcast. But that is that is one of my favorites. So, Melissa, as we wrap up this great conversation today, I always have so much fun when I talk to you. What is the most important thing you would like our listeners to remember about this work that you're doing?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

I think the biggest thing, especially on a personal level, is to remember that empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space.

Lyn Wineman:

Oh, wow.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

So if you're feeling judgment for yourself, you're not gonna feel self-empathy. If you're feeling judgment for someone else, you're not gonna be able to give them empathy. And I think that's a really important sign to just be aware of.

Lyn Wineman:

Wow. If I put your quote, empathy is a practice, not a performance, uh behind me on up on my shoulder or on the wall behind my shoulder. I think I want to put that empathy and judgment cannot coexist, like right in front of my face here. That is such good, good, good advice, practical advice. Melissa, I'm sad that this is coming to an end. I'm gonna say that I fully believe the world needs more people like you, more firms like EQ via empathy. And I just appreciate you taking time to talk with us today.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Well, thank you so much for having me. And I'm so excited with Kid Glove that you're doing the same thing with the marketing industry. Because if all of us keep doing it in our respective places, people are gonna have to notice.

Lyn Wineman:

Yeah, they're gonna have to notice. We are not going quietly into the background, are we? All right. Melissa, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This was such a pleasure, Lynn.

Announcer:

We hope you enjoyed today's Agency for Change podcast. To hear all our interviews with those who are making a positive change in our communities, or to nominate a change maker you'd love to hear from, visit kidglove.com at kidglov.com to get in touch. As always, if you like what you've heard today, feature to rate, review, subscribe, and share. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.