Agency for Change : A Podcast from KidGlov

Changemaker Farra Trompeter, Co-Director and Worker-Owner, Big Duck

• KidGlov • Season 1 • Episode 257

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Dive into the world of nonprofit branding with Farra Trompeter, co-director and worker-owner at Big Duck, as she shares transformative insights on aligning mission, messaging, and money for maximum impact. Drawing from nearly three decades of experience helping organizations tell their stories effectively, Farra offers a refreshing perspective that challenges conventional wisdom about what makes a nonprofit brand truly powerful.

With fundraising pressures mounting for nonprofits in today's uncertain landscape, Farrah offers practical guidance for leaders feeling overwhelmed. Whether you're reimagining your nonprofit's brand, struggling to connect communications with fundraising goals, or simply seeking fresh perspectives on nonprofit leadership, this conversation delivers actionable insights grounded in decades of specialized experience. Tune in to discover how clarifying who you are internally can transform how effectively you communicate externally – and ultimately, how successfully you advance your mission.

Connect with Farra and Big Duck at: 

·       Website: https://bigduck.com/

·       Contact Big Duck: Hello@BigDuck.com 

·       Contact Farra: Farra@BigDuck.com

Connect with Farra and Big Duck at: 

·       Website: https://bigduck.com/

·       Contact Big Duck: Hello@BigDuck.com 

·       Contact Farra: Farra@BigDuck.com

Farra Trompeter: 0:01

One step forward.

Announcer: 0:05

Welcome to Agency for Change, a podcast from KidGlov that brings you the stories of changemakers who are actively working to improve our communities. In every episode, we'll meet with people who are making a lasting impact in the places we call home. 

Lyn Wineman: 0:28

Hey everyone, this is Lyn Wineman, President and Chief Strategist at KidGlov. Welcome back to another episode of the Agency for Change podcast. Today, we are diving into the world of nonprofit branding, fundraising and communications some of my favorite topics with someone who has spent nearly three decades helping organizations tell their stories and connect with their supporters. I am joined by Farra Trompeter, Co-director and Worker-Owner at Big Duck. This is a cooperative that partners with nonprofits to build powerful brands, craft campaigns, and strengthen communication strategies. Farra is not only an expert in guiding nonprofits through major brand overhauls and fundraising campaigns, but she's also a dedicated teacher, speaker, podcaster and advocate for equity and impact in the sector. This conversation is going to be full of insights for anyone who wants to better align mission messaging and money. So let's get started. Farra, welcome to the podcast.

Farra Trompeter: 1:42

Thanks, Lyn, I'm excited to be here.

Lyn Wineman: 1:43

You know I have been an admirer of your agency, Big Duck, for a long time now. I think I first heard someone from your group speak at Cause Camp in maybe 2017, but I'd love to have you start by telling us more about Big Duck.

Farra Trompeter: 2:05

Yeah, well, excited to be here today and appreciate that. You've known about us for a bit. I'm excited to get to know you. So Big Duck was started in 1994 by Sarah Durham, who may have very well been the person you saw speak at Cause Camp back in 2017.

We often get the question why are we called Big Duck? Someone's going to jump in 2017. I think it was Sarah started Big Duck. We often get the question why are we called Big Ducks? I'm just going to jump in there. I love it. After she was doing licensing and branding and thinking about Mickey, minnie, donald, daisy, goofy and Pluto, the mice, the ducks and the dogs for Disney. 

And she had the ducks in her mind, and so she wanted to start something that was creative and more than just about herself. So she created Big Duck Studio, which is our legal name, and I have had the pleasure of being here for 18 years, since 2007. And in 2021, Sarah sold the business to the staff. We became a worker-owned co-op. We can talk more about that if you want. That is why the second part of my title is worker-owner.

Lyn Wineman: 3:07

Oh, you know I'm going to ask you about that. That is the next question. We'll definitely get into that.

Farra Trompeter: 3:11

But just at a high level. For folks out there who may not be familiar with Big Duck, we work exclusively with nonprofit organizations to help them use communication to achieve their mission, and our big areas of work include brands and messaging, creating campaigns and communications plans, including also doing some assessments of their department team structure and then doing trainings and workshops. We're really big fans of capacity building and try to bake that into everything that we do, but more and more we are working with foundations and associations to develop and lead trainings to really support their grantees and partners.

Lyn Wineman: 3:48

That's fantastic. You know you don't know this, Farra, but I believe that there was a time when we were rebranding to KidGlov and somebody said we need a name more like Big Duck, and so we went with KidGlov, right? We wanted to treat people and brands with kid gloves. So there you have it.

Farra Trompeter: 4:13

That's great. I love that we inspired your brand.

Lyn Wineman: 4:16

Yeah, there you go. You've been inspirational in many ways. All right, I do want to ask you about the worker-owner title, because I think that's so intriguing and I think the whole model of employee ownership I think is really intriguing as well. So tell me more about what that means for Big Duck and how that impacts your culture.

Farra Trompeter: 4:39

Great, so yeah. So, like I said, we've been around for over 30 years. In 2021, Sarah was considering the next step for her and the next step for the company, realized that she wanted to explore some other work, work in some other ways, so knew she wanted to leave Big Duck and move on into another chapter. And, rather than selling Big Duck to another agency, she opted to sell it to the staff. So at that point, we became employee owned and we went through a lot of processes and options.

We work with a group called the ICA group, which helped us figure out how to go on the transition to be employee owned and in that process you know it's a we set up loans from both Sarah and the bank to buy the business from her over a time period, figured out what it meant to be an employee owner, who wanted to do that, who worked on our team, what was eligibility for future staff. So being a worker owner is optional. You could work here forever and decide you don't want to be a worker owner. That's totally fine. It happens to be right now. Of our 14 full-time staff, 13 of them are worker owners.

And what that means is we have a whole governance charts with decision-making ironed out, and there are certain decisions that we are required to either get input or approval from the worker owners and or our board, which is a representative body of worker owners, before we can move forward. So, for example, as co-director, I help run the company, I help recommend and manage our annual plan that we do every year and our budget, but our board, which again is almost a little more than about half of our worker owners, are the ones who have to approve that budget and have to approve that plan, which is created after getting buy-in from the entire staff, including our worker owners. So, as a worker-owned company, we are what's considered democratically governed because we have this board and these decision-making structures. We also, at the end of the year, if there are profits available after investing in the business and you know other things that are eligible to be considered for profit, we then distribute them equally.

So in you know other iterations, if an agency is owned by one person, they can get all the profit, decide how they want to distribute it, or if they're going to distribute it, or maybe a small group of partners. In this model. Once you are. It's sort of one voice, one vote, both when it comes to decisions, but also in the way we've set up our co-op. Equal distribution to profits. Again, that's how all co-ops are based on.

So it's an exciting way to also potentially build wealth for some people who may not have access to that and, again, it's not dependent on seniority or experience, in the same way as salaries might be. Yeah, yeah, and there's lots of other things, but those are some of the characteristics.

Lyn Wineman: 7:51

I think that's a great explanation. So I'm really curious what it's like to have 12 partners if you have 13 owners. Right and really, what does it do for your culture? Because I am always learning and looking for what are the newest ideas on great employee culture.

Farra Trompeter: 8:12

Yeah, I mean, I think it makes us in some ways slower to move, but also more likely that the decisions we make are going to stick and more people will be aligned around them, because more people have been contributing to what they are and there are more touch points for getting feedback, and I think I think it results in people feeling more connection to the company, more agency, like their voice matters, that they're respected in ways that perhaps other structures don't allow for.

Most recently we had a board meeting where we had to get the board to approve our health plan for the next year as well as any additional benefits we were considering for coverage, and that was a conversation at the board level that was open for anyone to also attend and hear, and that means that the decision that was made again didn't just come from our operations and our executive management myself and a co-director but came from a representative body, which means that you know again, more people are bought into what it is to defending it, to understanding it. So we've enjoyed pretty strong retention the past four years since we've had a co-op, and I think that could be part of that too.

Lyn Wineman: 9:27

That's amazing and that's a big decision, right. That I think a lot of if you were not a worker owner, if you were an employee a lot of people don't have insight to because it is really complicated and expensive and you're trying to figure out the best plan for everyone while being able to still be a profitable for profit business, right? Because while you and I serve nonprofits, we are not nonprofits, right, or we attempt not to be right.

It's a really big and complicated decision, so I love that.

Farra Trompeter: 10:02

I will say yeah, it does, and I think you know many of us who work at Big Duck have previously worked on the staff of nonprofit organizations, volunteered with nonprofits boards. I've kind of done all of those. Yeah, this makes us even more nonprofit adjacent. We have a board right. I managed now by the board. What's interesting in the worker-owned model is, in a traditional agency, the CEO, the principal, the co-director. Certainly they hope their staff likes them and wants to work with them, but they're not managed per se by anyone. In this structure. The board manages myself and the co-director, so we have an executive management committee that is made up of two of our board members who manage us conduct our annual performance review, there's just a higher level of accountability, which again I think has been generally very positive for us.

Lyn Wineman: 10:59

You know, I do believe that is an interesting nuance of nonprofit work is understanding how to help a board or how to help a leadership team kind of navigate that dynamic to make sure that you're sharing the right information and taking the right people on the journey right. But not also, you know, if you've got a board, they also have other jobs. They don't have time even if they're worker owners, they don't have time to do everything in lockstep. So it's always an interesting dynamic. All right, let's flip over to nonprofits, because I know this is where a lot of your expertise is. And you work in branding, we work in branding, it's one of my favorite things. But how do you define Farrah, a strong nonprofit brand, and why does it matter in this space?

Farra Trompeter: 11:54

Well, I think a strong nonprofit brand has both the internal and the external pieces to it. So we can talk at some point about the book that Sarah Durham, our founder, wrote called Brand Raising, which I helped contribute to. I'm very passionate about still a foundation of what we do. And there's another book that I also really like about branding, called the Brand Idea. I don't know if you have read that one.

Lyn Wineman: 12:17

I have not, but I'm going to look it up right away.

Farra Trompeter: 12:23

So the brand idea written by Natalie Lader Kylander and Julia Shepard-Stenzel, In the brand idea, there are these sort of different quadrants, but one of the things I appreciate about it is the layering of the internal and the external, and that is the way I think about branding. So internally, you have to be clear about who you are and where you're going. These are things that are often articulated in things like a strategic plan, a theory of change, a logic model or at least they are clearly in someone's mind where they could tell you the answer to that question and there's some sense of again, not just who we are today, but who are we leaning and becoming in the next five to 10 years? Is who we are still needed? Is it still responsive to the community we're working in? Have we factored in whatever's happening in the landscape?

So a brand has to be first rooted in a clarity of who you are and where you're going and there has to be a sense of cohesion internally about that. If I was to ask your staff and get you know, there's 10 different people who work there and 10 different people tell me who you are. It's one thing if they're using slightly different phrases, but they mean the same thing. That goes to the external, that goes to messaging. But if I'm hearing about what sounds like 10 different organizations doing 10 different things, that is a problem. So brand has to first be rooted in clarity and cohesion about who we are. Then we can think externally about how we should communicate that. 

And then the other piece of that is also how do other people see us and is that perception the way we want to be seen? Do they see us for who we were 10 years ago? Do they see us just for something we used to do, but not what we do now? Do they only know one part of us but again, not the whole? So a good brand is representative of again, who we are on the inside, what we want people to think and associate with us, and then is expressed in clear and consistent and compelling ways across our communication channels. So obviously, starting with the name and the logo and the tagline and the mission and vision articulation, the messaging we're using, what's on our social channels, what's coming across in the mail. But again, if it's not clear internally then you're never going to get there externally.

Or if you're just focused on the external representation. I know I've had calls in my life I'm sure you have too where people say, oh, we need a new website by the way, Big Duck doesn't do websites, we can talk about that, but we need a new website. And I say, okay, well, why do you need a new website?

Lyn Wineman: 14:50

Yeah, I can look at it. I can see it's dated. That is always the question, right? Why? Why Tell me more? Why?

Farra Trompeter: 14:55

And then the answer is yeah, sure, I can see that it's dated, the functionality is not working. But then they say, well, because nobody understands what you do, 

You know, brand isn't just a fancy, beautiful new logo though I hope both of our agencies create that for organizations, and I know that we do, but it has to be again I always talk about it should be rooted in who you authentically are in one foot and then the other foot going toward aspirationally who you want to be.

Lyn Wineman: 15:29

Farra, I always like to say that an authentic brand is a much better asset than a polished brand any day of the week. Because when you know who you are and what you stand for and you can communicate that in a way that people also understand and it resonates, that's where the magic happens. You know, anyone can go out and design a sexy little graphic and a nice color palette with the latest fonts right, but it's, it's so much more than that, I love. I love what you're saying. All right, I also have to say hello, because over your shoulder I think I see a kitten. Is that true?

Farra Trompeter: 16:12

It's true, I've got two actually. One is behind me, the other one is to the right of me, so I got on the. I'm surrounded by my emotional support animals. I love it. Yes, that's the one you see is Iki, our littlest Opehe, and then the other one is Tiny Dancer. Fun fact, iki means tiny, I believe in Hawaiian. My wife is not Hawaiian, but she grew up in Hawaii, so they're both relatively small, but we've got Tiny Dancer and Iki, our littlest.

Lyn Wineman: 16:46

And I'm you know, I'm hearing Elton John in my ears right now too, you knew I would, so I love it. So let's talk a little bit more. We've talked about the importance. What is a strong nonprofit brand? Why is it important? How, in your mind, does the strong nonprofit brand connect with fundraising success, cause every nonprofit I know fundraising and now more than ever, fundraising is always on their mind.

Farra Trompeter: 17:14

Yeah, well, this actually, I think, in part starts with audience, which we didn't talk about yet when it comes to a good brand, right, a good brand we did talk about it briefly in that people have to understand and know you for the right things and hopefully the right people know who you are. We say you want to be known for the right things. Within that, I find that many of our clients, when we're talking to them about well, who are the audiences you're trying to engage with your brand? Who really needs to know who you are? It is not the general public, it's not everyone.

Lyn Wineman: 17:47

It's not everyone. Nobody has enough money for it to be everyone.

Farra Trompeter: 17:50

Exactly no one has enough money or, frankly, the need, in almost 99.9% of the cases, to reach every person. But when we think about who needs to know us and what we want them to think, so many of the organizations come to us and say donors. They might say individual donors, high net worth individuals, people who work at foundations, corporate giving officers. Right, there's some fundraising related audience and similarly, when we talk about the goals for branding, we generally offer as a reaction these three interlocking circles and this is also in the book Brand Raising that Sarah Durham wrote of fundraising programs and advocacy.

So most people are branding because they need to get more people to participate in their programs, they need to generate revenue or attract revenue, or they need to change hearts and minds or legislation. Many organizations they're branding for all three of those reasons or they're going through a branding process where one is leading the other. For example, you know what we I think this was in your book. I believe in your book the Untangling Spaghetti, you started off with this sort of idea, if I remember correctly, of you know we've got a great program and a great staff. Not enough people are signing up in our program right.

And we can solve that by getting the word out. But we would also ask the question like well, why are we, you know, is this because we're not offering the right program? Is it because not enough people know about it, or is it because the way we're talking about it just isn't landing? So, program you know, but some organizations have overcapacity in their programs. They can't meet the demands and what they need is money so that they can continue, they can pay their staff, they can meet the growing needs. So fundraising is often a goal and an audience for branding and I think because of that, while we started as a branding agency, we at Big Duck do a lot of fundraising adjacent work. So we help organizations with the sort of naming and identity and themes and collateral for fundraising campaigns, also for outreach campaigns. We do communications plans where you're trying to think about how do you use channels and your communications approaches to build relationships with donors and prospects.

We do research to create donor profiles and messaging to persuade donors to give. We've been doing sub-branding work for donor programs like your monthly giving, your legacy giving, et cetera. So I think we've taken our branding approach and insights to the fundraising world in a way that's been very successful. Several people on our team, including myself, have a background in fundraising. In fact, I started my career working in fundraising and then got into communications. 

Yeah, yeah, and I was going to say one of the to me and my experience, the skills you need to be a good fundraiser are very similar to the skills you need to be a good communicator. You need to understand how to talk in a way that is compelling. You need to understand how to you know connect what you're doing to the community you're working and listen to them and respond to them. You need to be able to solve problems. You need to be able to center the audience as you're trying to engage in your work and not just talk at them but talk with them. So, to me, good fundraising, good communications hand in hand. I have seen and experienced those two departments working at odds with each other in organizations.

Lyn Wineman: 21:15

Kind of like sales and marketing in a for-profit right. You all should be on the same page, right? And when you're not when you're not, it's very painful.

Farra Trompeter: 21:20

Correct, yeah. So, anyway, all that to say, I would say about 30% of the work we do is in the area of work we call campaigns, where we're doing things that are unique to trying to get a particular audience to take a particular action. Again, sometimes that's just outreach campaigns, but usually it's capital campaigns, major donor campaigns, sometimes year end fundraising campaigns.

Lyn Wineman: 21:44

Yeah, All right. So all of that work and all of your history, I think two decades right in the nonprofit world.

Farra Trompeter: 21:51

Three decades. Both Big Duck and I have been working in the nonprofit world.

Lyn Wineman: 21:55

Three decades Both Big Duck and I have been working in the nonprofit world for 30 years. Well, I do not want to cut that short by any means, because that's a lot. I'm curious. This has been a really interesting year for nonprofits. So people who are listening to this, later on, we're recording this in September of 2025. What trends are you seeing right now?

Farra Trompeter: 22:18

I mean, I think it's been really hard for everybody this moment, but in particular for nonprofit organizations. We saw, you know, during COVID, nonprofits had to be responsive and pivot really quickly to very different needs from their community and from their staff. During the height of the pandemic there was also a different sense of how vital nonprofits were to communities, investment by funders to particularly justice organizations, organizations that were led by people of color, and now we're seeing a complete pendulum switch and reaction to some of those advances. And so there are some nonprofits who have had to close because they have lost funding or have had to significantly downsize their team, have had to move into, you know, we've been working, I think, over the past few years to try to get organizations to embrace an abundant mindset and to be more open to taking risks and now organizations are very much risk averse because they are worried about losing their 501c3 status.

They're worried about losing funding. So I think we're seeing organizations having to pull back and operate from a place of fear unfortunately, depending on the organization, depending on its funding, depending on who it works with, some organizations may not have been as affected. So I think the trend I'm seeing is that staff just seem like they have more pressure on them. There's higher levels of burnout, there's more do more work in less time. I think we have seen that. I feel like every year there is that right and there's now like all right, what do I do with this new communications channel? How do I manage AI and what should I be doing about that? And it's just like whack-a-mole. They keep coming and coming and coming and just when you solve one problem or address one opportunity to be more abundant, six more pop up and it's like what is happening here.

So I don't know if I have a global trend other than I think it's really hard to work in communications and for nonprofits and the job is not necessarily getting any easier. But it is incredibly important and I hope more people still think about it as a career path. But it's very hard right now.

Lyn Wineman: 24:32

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. You know, one of my hobbies actually is that I love serving on nonprofit boards and I always say yes, probably to too many, but I love doing it. And you know, I feel like one of my roles as a board member is to advocate for the mental wellbeing of the staff, and particularly the executive director, because I'm seeing exactly what you're saying. Like since the pandemic, they've just been on this constant cortisol run. I feel like, right, like they got through the pandemic and then there was a workforce shortage, and then there was an economic challenge, and now there's all the threats of, you know, cutting funding from, you know, both federal and state governments, because most of our states are struggling with funding issues now too.

Right. And so, and even the nonprofits who have been granted funding, they maybe aren't getting the payments because the person who used to process their payments is no longer there, and so then they're forced to figure out how to manage the gaps until they get that guaranteed money. And there's only so many waves of this that any human can take. So, you know, making sure to tell those executive leadership teams hey, take the break before you hit the wall right, set reasonable expectations. Tell the board you need some help, even though it doesn't look like the funding is there. You know, I think that's a really critical thing. So, Farra, all this great work that you do, I feel like I should ask you what advice would you give to nonprofit leaders who are out there right now? They want to strengthen their brand or their communication strategies, but maybe they're not sure where to start.

Farra Trompeter: 26:34

I mean, I always say start with audience start with understanding. Don't just do the things you've always been doing because you've been doing them. Take a look and understand first of all. How are people reacting and engaging to what you're doing? If you can do some research, surveys, interviews, focus groups, whatever it may be, to better understand where your community is and where they actually wanna hear from you? So your community might be on TikTok, but you might not have the right content to use TikTok well, or maybe they're not looking for you on TikTok.

They need to find you more on LinkedIn or Instagram or you know wherever it might be. So I always just think, start with really pausing, take a look at actually what is happening now before you take more on. We often recommend in the communications planning work we do that you at least quarterly ask the question what should we stop, what should we start, what should we test?

Lyn Wineman: 27:27

Oh, I love it. What should we stop, what should we start and what should we test? I feel like I want to write that on the wall behind my shoulder.

Farra Trompeter: 27:35

Put it on a post-it note stick it somewhere, live it, love it. But I do think there's just this constant again, going back to what I was speaking about, the challenge of this moment earlier, there's just this constant thing of there's always more we should do, more we should do. Oh, a board member says we should get on TikTok.

I'll just pick on that while I'm there. Or we should start doing X, and maybe you should. But if you have limited capacity, whether it's from a brain space, a financial space, a headcount space, then taking on more is only going to potentially work against you. You might not do that as well. I'd rather see organizations do less things better, and more deeply.

So I think to me it's about quality over quantity. So I think, as a leader and I will just sort of shout out, Sarah Durham also wrote another book called the Nonprofit Communications Engine, which was really was written primarily for nonprofit leaders you know, executive directors, board members, folks who are running comms and development to think about communications a little bit differently. So that's a great and we've got like blogs and webinars and stuff on our website about it too. But there's some good advice in there too.

Lyn Wineman: 28:41

Absolutely, Farra, This is a great time to ask you why don't you give us that website address and any other ways you would like people to know? Who are listening to this, want to reach out, learn more. How can they reach out to you?

Farra Trompeter: 28:55

Sure, so you can go to bigduck.com. So B-I-G-D-U-C-K.com.

Lyn Wineman: 29:02

One of the easiest websites ever right, but we'll have it in the show notes for everyone, just in case you're driving and you didn't get that down, bigduck.com

Farra Trompeter: 29:05

And when you go there you'll see we've got a bunch of blogs and podcasts and our insights and eBooks and lots of resources, case studies. But on the site you can drop us a contact form or you could always email hello@BigDuckcom or Farrah F, as in Frank Farra@BigDuck.com, and we'll be in touch.

Lyn Wineman: 29:31

That's fantastic. We'll get all of those in the show notes. So one more question. Then I'm going to get to my favorite question here. But one more question, and that is what's ahead for you and Big Duck, what are you looking forward to in the future?

Farra Trompeter: 29:44

Well, this year we've sort of made a pronounced push for doing more trainings and workshops. So we have been doing trainings and workshops for as long as I've been here for 18 years and so longer than that and that's something many of us like to do. I'm an adjunct professor on the side, so love teaching and we're doing more and more of that. Where, again, people are investing us to teach their staff, their teams, their grantees. So we're hoping to do more of that. There's a way we can help build the sector and support staff in new ways. So I'd say that's one thing I'm looking forward to. There are plenty of others, but I'll start with that.

Lyn Wineman: 30:19

I love that. I love that. All right, so, Farra, one of my favorite questions that I've asked on every episode is I would love to get a few of your own words of wisdom to inspire our listeners. A Farra original quote 

Farra Trompeter: 30:38

I'm going to start by offering an origin and then my spin on it. So there's a phrase that I really clung to, especially in the beginning of COVID, as we were dealing with a lot of need to pivot ourselves and help our clients through, which was progress, not perfection, and I think where I have adapted that for myself or was inspired, is this idea of one step forward. But I think in these moments where we can feel overwhelmed and then again there's so much to do and there's so much to get done in a day and there's never enough time, is there one thing I can do to advance something when it feels so overwhelming that that's something I try to hold on to.

Lyn Wineman: 31:16

I love that. One step forward, progress, not perfection. It's great advice, a great quote. All right, Farra, I've loved this conversation. As we wrap up our time together today, I'd like to ask what is the most important thing you'd like our listeners to remember about the work that you're doing?

Farra Trompeter: 31:39

I think you know, for us, we again we always simplify our work to how can we help you use communications to achieve your mission. So, again, when in doubt, root any questions about what you're doing. And is it helping us advance the work we are supposed to do as an organization? And is it helping us connect and build relationships with the communities we're trying to?

Lyn Wineman: 31:59

Wow, I love that thought. Farra, I am so glad that the two of us decided it would be cool and fun for two agency people to have this chat, do some podcast conversations together. I fully believe the world needs more people like you and more organizations like Big Duck. Thanks for taking time with us today.

Farra Trompeter: 32:21

Thank you so much for having me, and I feel the same.

Announcer: 32:25

We hope you enjoyed today's Agency for Change podcast. To hear all our interviews with those who are making a positive change in our communities or to nominate a changemaker you'd love to hear from. Visit kidglov.com at K-I-D-G-L-O-V.com to get in touch, as always. If you like what you've heard today, be sure to rate, review, subscribe and share. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.